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Etubrute
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 Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:08 am Post subject: Cataclysm -- Raid Progression Refinements |
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We're continuing to refine the raid progression paths in Cataclysm, and we'd like to share some of those changes with you today. Please enjoy!
The first of the refinements being made is that we're combining all raid sizes and difficulties into a single lockout. Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout. You can defeat each raid boss once per week per character. In other words, if you wanted to do both a 10- and 25-person raid in a single week, you’d need to do so on two different characters. Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel. Obviously the raid lockout change doesn't apply in pure Icecrown terms though, as this change goes hand-in-hand with a few other changes to raid progression in Cataclysm.
We're designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we'll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They'll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.
Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards
* 10 and 25-player (Normal difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
* 10 and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.
We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people. The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind, and the class designers are making class changes to help make 10-person groups easier to build. Running 25-player raids will be a bit more lucrative, as should be expected, but if for a week or two you need to do 10s because half the guild is away on vacation, you can do that and not suffer a dramatic loss to your ability to get the items you want.
We recognize that very long raids can be a barrier for some players, but we also want to provide enough encounters for the experience to feel epic. For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid. All of these bosses would drop the same item level gear, but the dungeons themselves being different environments will provide some variety in location and visual style, as well as separate raid lockouts. Think of how you could raid Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep separately, but you might still want to hit both every week.
We do like how gating bosses over time allows the community to focus on individual encounters instead of just racing to the end boss, so we’re likely to keep that design moving forward. We don't plan to impose attempt limitations again though, except maybe in cases of rare optional bosses (like Algalon). Heroic mode may not be open from day one, but will become available after defeating normal mode perhaps as little as once or twice.
In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don’t want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We’ll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.
We design our raids to be accessible to a broad spectrum of players, so we want groups to be able to make the decision about whether to attempt the normal or Heroic versions of raids pretty quickly. The goal with all of these changes is to make it as much of a choice or effect of circumstance whether you raid as a group of 10 or as a group of 25 as possible. Whether you're a big guild or a small guild the choice won't be dependent on what items drop, but instead on what you enjoy the most.
We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We're eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments! |
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Last edited by Etubrute on Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Etubrute
Guild Master
Joined: 14 Apr 2009
Posts: 521
Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:38 am Post subject: |
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<3 This Accouncement.
Nothing is more boring then sitting through the same exact raid all week long.
IF blizzard actually does it correctly from the start then I'm 100% for this.
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Etubrute
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Joined: 14 Apr 2009
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Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:38 am Post subject: |
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My only fear is it might kill off 25 man raiding in general.
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xandalanis
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Joined: 16 May 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:44 am Post subject: |
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This is pretty much what BC was about.
t4 content included Karazhan , Gruul's Lair, and Magtheridon's lair. Granted kara was more of a time consuming raid than Grull or Mag, it was still 3 raids for one tier of gear.
t5 was SSC and TK. TK comprised of 4 bosses and SSC with 6 bosses.
t6 was Hyjal(5 bosses), BT(9 bosses), and SWP(6 bosses).
I am sortof happy that Cata will be going back to multiple raids per tier, keeps people interested rather than doing the same boss kills every week. |
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Etubrute
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:53 am Post subject: |
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As long as the content is short I'm happy.
For instance I'd be much happier doing ICC on Tues, ToC/Ony on Wed, and Ulduar on Thursday if all 3 were one night raids.
And if all 4 raids dropped the same gear level type gear.
Drudging through the same instance all week long is hella boring over time.
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Wimstor
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Guess people will have even more epics...it wont kill 25 man raids...if the current loot in 10 mans is 2 epics that's 10/2 1 loot per 5 players...in order for 25 mans to offer more than than that it would have to be 6 loot per boss or 25/6 1 loot per 4.16 players...if 25 man bosses start dropping 6 epics i doubt people will stop running 25 man raids....I hate all of this catering to casual raiders...sooner or later you'll be able to log on for 2 hours each week and pick up 4 epics...they should go back to the days when it was 3 or 4 loot per boss in a 40 man raid |
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Adelleda
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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Haha says the loot whore that won't get saved with us!!!
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Etubrute
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Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Wimstor wrote: | | Guess people will have even more epics...it wont kill 25 man raids...if the current loot in 10 mans is 2 epics that's 10/2 1 loot per 5 players...in order for 25 mans to offer more than than that it would have to be 6 loot per boss or 25/6 1 loot per 4.16 players...if 25 man bosses start dropping 6 epics i doubt people will stop running 25 man raids....I hate all of this catering to casual raiders...sooner or later you'll be able to log on for 2 hours each week and pick up 4 epics...they should go back to the days when it was 3 or 4 loot per boss in a 40 man raid |
They will never go back to 40 mans Jim, ever.
For someone who raids at most maybe once a month I would think of all people YOU would be all for this. You preach and scream for the "old ways" of WoW yet you barely exercise the enjoyment and passion of even a semi-casual raider. Seems bizarre to want to have things back to Vanilla WoW when you can barely commit time to the game in it's current raid format.
I'm all for these changes made by Blizzard, to be honest. As life gets more and more crazy and my free time gets slimmer and slimmer this is what the game needs.
Seriously the super hardcore WoW guilds are comprised of at most 5% of the total WoW community. Financially it makes no sense to keep the game hardcore for Blizzard.
If those hardcore guilds disband and the players quit (which as hardcore players they wouldn't anyways because they're addicted to WoW) it's no sweat off Blizzards money making backs.
It's science.
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Wimstor
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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I was only using the 40 mans as an example nub. It wasn't a serious suggestion. The reason why I don't raid is because I have other things going on during the guild raid times and what's the point if I can get the same gear from doing pugs that are more convenient. Why would I give up RL activities to raid when I can roll on any day of the week and clear 7/12 25?
Just because I'm utilizing the casual raiding changes that Bliz implemented doesn't mean I like them. I think it's really sad that I can roll on at random times and still get top notch gear. It's a disgrace. The fact that it doesn't disappoint you and other guildies who raid consistently baffles me. You spend hours trying to down a certain boss as a guild when organized geared pugs are clearing 10/12 If Blizzard makes changes that makes content easier and epics more common then I will adapt to those changes by playing less. It just surprises me that hardcore raiders aren't getting fed up with the easy content. I also think it's ironic that you think the game needs more casual content as your time "get slimmer and slimmer." The game needs changes as your schedule changes.
Lastly, the reason why I mention 40 man content is because when I would give up something I enjoyed doing to play WoW , I knew I was getting something valuable ingame out of it. I was downing bosses that only 3 or 4 other guilds on a server were doing and getting gear that not many other people had. Nowadays what incentive would I have to sacrifice RL stuff to raid on a weeknight if I can log on at 1am and still have the same chance of getting gear?
And as much as you say casual is good for your schedule you've shown before that if RL stuff comes up then you put the game on hold. It's impossible for you to play casually. It's either 3 or 4 nights a week raiding or no wow at all. For someone with that dedication I can see why you'd be frustrated when shitty people roll on twice a week and have high gear scores. If cataclysm comes out and pugs are full clearing 10 man instances you'll still be running a guild with raid times while bashing people who miss raids to play when its convenient for them.
I'm just amazed that your embracing these casual raiding changes when you don't utilize them and practically resent anyone who benefits from them.
You say "You preach and scream for the "old ways" of WoW yet you barely exercise the enjoyment and passion of even a semi-casual raider." I am enjoying being a semi-casual raider and if instances became too hard for pugs to do I'd be the first person to show up for guild raids. But for now and seemingly the future, what's the point?
BTW
Adel, you have no idea what you're talking about. I've gladly gotten saved to 1 boss per lockout because I enjoy progression. The first 10m Fester,Rotface,Prof 25m Princes and SIndragosa kills I gladly got locked too because I was happy to help a guild first. And since when can someone be a loot whore when there is dkp?
I started this guild with brute and raided 10/25 naxx before dkp even existed here. You don't even know the amount of nights I spent carrying recruits through naxx/uld until 5am when I wasn't getting anything out of it except building up a strong guild base. You should really get your facts straight before you attempt to bash someone. |
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Adelleda
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Posts: 105
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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Whoa easy there! no need to get pissy. it was a joke calling you a loot whore but obviously you're a little sensitive about it and therefore got defensive.
And btw you don't even know how many people i've carried through raids( as well as a lot of core raiders)and how much energy and time I've put into helping the guild and the people in it with no rewards. Just because you've helped the guild doesn't mean others haven't done the same
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Etubrute
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Joined: 14 Apr 2009
Posts: 521
Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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Some of us enjoy playing the game Jim.
We can't all be loot whores like you.
Just reading your post explains that all you really care about is your gear.
** And if something in real life comes up during the week I put WoW aside for it anytime **
I honestly could give a crap about randoms getting epics. It's been part of the game for a very very very long time. It isn't going away.
I embrace the casual changes made by Blizzard so that I have even more free time outside of playing WoW to enjoy other additional activities that might come along.
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